#39 - DevOps Leave Managers, Not Companies

This week we discussed communication with, and as managers. Relationships within devops teams and outside it. How we asses it when looking for a job, while hiring or when managing teams.

Links:

• The post Omer mentioned: http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1700627373
• JSON Resumee - https://jsonresume.org
• resume-cli - https://github.com/jsonresume/resume-cli
• ChatGPT - DevOps Description Dynamizer
• Our Twitter: https://twitter.com/devopstopeaks

Meir's blog: https://meirg.co.il
Omer's blog: https://omerxx.com
Telegram channel: https://t.me/espressops

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 13:42 Meir's perspective
• 16:31 Omer's approach
• 26:00 It happened to us
• 30:54 Omer can sing
• 34:49 Different people require different approached
• 37:19 Links of the week

Transcript

0:00

Launch Oh my lady Yes, I am Okay, and action Yeah, yeah Hello everyone, and welcome to DevOps topic episode number 40 39 I'm always I'm saying a number and then I figured it's not the real number today I tried checking and it seems like it is 39 Well, it's that then for the past three weeks, but I'm sure we'll pass will pass it and we'll get to 40 someday 39 version three Okay, yeah We're bumping it. Okay, so DevOps topic so number 39 hopefully and today's topic We have a owner on the line. So wait wait wait wait wait before the topic. Do you want to start with What we always forget to mention yes start with the forget Okay You can find us on our Twitter page which I uploaded that did I I think I did I uploaded the last episode to and I will upload this one as well I mean not the episode just the fact that we've uploaded an episode so you can contact us through DevOps topics Twitter page It you will have a link below and you can find us on Twitter just by searching DevOps topics But if you want to find us go there Mayor, what about the Facebook group? Should people go look for us over there or not? But yes, of course, why not okay to try why not why not just try So that if you want to you know discuss anything comment because we'd make a lot of mistakes So you probably want to fix us. So that's where you want to find us. I think that's it for now Gave us a lot of credibility to proceed with the episode now that you said that we were making a lot of mistakes A lot of credibility and end and because I said we make a lot of mistakes I think we and we restore my apologetic notice if you hear If you hear an advertisement during the episode. I'm sorry. I'm sorry In advance, but this helps us kind of maintain the platform and Not really cover everything, but at least help us somewhat Okay, nice to clean up. Yeah, thank you Okay, so episode number 39 And this episode is named DevOps don't live Companies they live managers or bosses Yes, so we intentionally said DevOps and not DevOps engineers because I said that I think it's funnier So yeah, and because it's also the culture if you think about it. Oh, yeah, okay, so DevOps Yep Do it on me. What's the first thing that comes up to your mind when I say DevOps engineers don't leave companies they leave managers Okay, let's be honest and tell whoever is listening to this and thinks oh, I know this It I know this from somewhere and you're right. It doesn't start with DevOps It starts with people and it's a common common quote people don't leave Companies they leave managers and I wanted to separate this talk into Mainly two separate things. I know you have a lot to say about it So I'll just go ahead and say it. I read a blog post on Friday I found it on Hacker News I leave a link to that blog post as well It was interesting because I learned a lot about how Google was back in 2005 and how it progressed over the years from a senior engineer's perspective And he left this year because he had some I don't know comments about what was going on and how things were handled in the Product perspective like from the product perspective and on other things and how things were managed But at the end of the day if you read the last passage He was kind of full blown coming out and attacking one specific manager Which he actually named and it it looked like well Yeah, you are leaving Google after 18 years because you hate one manager Which I have nothing bad to say about it I mean, I totally understand and I totally agree But the one thing I took after reading this kind of long blog post was okay He left a manager wasn't about Google. I mean, yes things changed over time As with any other company at the end of the day it boils down to how you're being managed How you're being treated how you can grow as an engineer, right? So all the things I think left me with the notion okay People live managers and I think you and I have a special perspective here because both of us work consultants But in the same case as let's see and today we work on different companies and you can share your news if you want But we have different perspectives on how we work with managers how we manage people how we work with team members And I think I think it's a discussion worth having Okay, so you might alone Do you want to start or do you want me to start shooting questions? Um Is there any topic you want me to Start my questions around like something involving I think I think that's this I'll say my perspective on Both lenses that I have I have the lens of a consultant Which is probably my longest Experience because that was something like five years and then how I feel about this thing within my company Yeah, so we're also selling a new product, which is named or Netherlands You can put it on and you can have two different lenses. It works with Sony cameras, so it's Okay, so on the lens go. Yeah, okay, so from the consultant's lens You're not okay as a consultant you don't have this sort of manager perspective because you're not really being managed from Team leaders perspective, right? It's not a team leader you have an end point someone to contact with and As a consultant within different groups, you have different roles air quotes you take on yourself It can be the like an Normal team member that you're being managed with Geertasks and roadmaps and plans and you're part of company holidays and everything There's this I'm just breaking it down out of the top of my head But basically you can be this Site consultant that helps with stuff on the go and they just use you for different projects So kind of like working hands for hard stuff. They need or you can be an Integral team member or an integral team leader actually I found myself as a consultant leading one team of DevOps I was hiring I was interviewing I was leading the team I was the one in charge of the roadmap and everything around that speaking to sea levels So it differs from that perspective I think that the notion of living managers is rather the same because at the end of the day you work with people So I didn't have the not a lot at least I didn't have a lot of say because I won't you know We worked under a consultancy. We were assigned companies to work with I couldn't really choose who I was assigned to work with And you could have chosen it with who you don't want to work with. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, but that's only after a while when you knew what was going on Yeah, so you did have the note selector you had the taint installations. Oh, thank you Yeah Kubernetes fellas got it and the ones who didn't no matter. No, just ignore it. Yeah, I didn't get it Okay, I'll just say this at one point. I worked with a company that was probably the one of the last ones Which goes to tell you how did I leave my previous role? I worked with the company any was horrible It was like being again after leaving the team of a few people and Managing the roadmap and talking to sea level. I was all over again this team member under a team lead I didn't really appreciate not technologically and not in the Personal level and I felt like I couldn't do it anymore and that led to a much broader Burnout. I was really burnt from the work I didn't want to open my computer. I didn't want to read blog posts I didn't want to do anything that has anything to do with computers and went to focus on other things in my life And that was always because of It wasn't really toxic, but it was that relationship with a single manager and I was a consultant Right, he was my manager air quotes not the direct manager, but he was my end point at that company He made me feel like I'm I I'm not worth much and I assume this has a lot to do with my ego But I think it's just something worth sharing Why is it worth sharing because you and I and other people listening to this are going one to be managed? One to manage and one to be managed, right? So when you're managed I think it's worth sharing as much feedback as you can to your manager explaining what's going on How do you feel? Everything that you can share and and have him be a better manager for you, right? Your requirements your feelings everything that you think is worth sharing and as a manager You want to do the same and grab if you're not shared this information voluntarily from your Your team members you want to grab it. You want to get it from them. So you can understand how to be a better manager Do you have questions? I see you're not thinking I laid when I when I Squeeze Hebrew like I'm low, you know, like no Let me start with that. Do you agree with the notion that people actually leave companies? Because of the manager and not because of the company or the roadmap or what's going on with the product? I think that's a to generic sentence. I think it's like having a good manager is important and mandatory But people can definitely Leave jobs for so many other reasons and I'm not talking about personal reasons. I'm talking about professional reasons Okay, so for starters, I want to contradict the sentence even though that's the name of our episode So for starters, I'd say One might want to join another company just because of their technology stack and their scale So maybe right now you're working in a very small team And and I'm saying the team like you're not alone So you know how to work with team and everything and you have Leave views, you know code reviews and everything and you can get you can evolve your DevOps skills But still it's not in the scale that you wanted So maybe moving to a bigger company will get you more skills And you'll be more more of an expert in the scaling or the size of a bigger application or whatever So I don't think it's related to the manager. The manager can be amazing, but I might want to leave because of the technology You know Do you want me to comment? Okay, okay, so I used I used to think exactly like you this plus probably the compensation I care about the salary and everything And you don't walk full free. I thought you all know. Yeah. No, I don't work Okay, that makes sense. Okay, so that's my whole perspective now changed. All right Okay, so my perspective was changed along the way I figured that with a good manager and I'll explain what a good good manager means to me And a manager doesn't have to be a team leader when you're the team leader many maybe your manager. Okay, let's Back up a little bit as a DevOps engineer especially if you're a team leader especially if you're the only one You'll probably not be managed by someone directly is in someone that only manages you it'll probably be either the CTO or VPR indeed if you're part of a small startup Or if that's an SMB you'll be managed by a group leader of some sort So you will be the one that you'll be the professional in charge of ops and infrastructure Most of the times at least for my experience So your manager doesn't have to be your direct manager If that even makes sense, but it's someone that gives you instructions And I figured that someone who's a good manager to me is someone who gives me enough freedom to do what I want But enough direction to understand You know my ballpark where my edges and what direction should I take in a certain topic or certain roadmap or a certain task? And Someone who helps me and gives me the requirements when I need them for example I'm trying to do something and then I have I'm running Very much well on my own and I can progress with things But then I hit a blocker a really hard blocker a good manager would sort of that instantly and would give me everything I need and would Like make it his priority to make sure I don't have blockers whereas bad manager is that I used to work with will just It'll be slow and it'll take their time and they forget about things and we'll just let things go over and over Right like not do not a one-time thing and then you'll figure that at some point You'll get the feeling that you're working with or for someone that doesn't really care about your progress and then just as well You will slow things down and you won't care as much and You understand how it be great from there. So to me I would prioritize a good manager on top of it You'll be surprised on top of compensation and on top of technology That said, I do care a lot when you know scouting for a new role. I do care about technology very much as you know I do care about compensation I just think if you're you know how you you give part of your soul in order to be part of an organization I don't want to give 50% of my soul just to be compensated with because money won't compensate for my soul Not mine And so that's friends from the grand Budapest hotel of to say it depends exactly Exactly and I think that one last thing is when you're managed well You're able to grow and when you grow you learn new technologies You have the freedom to learn whatever you want and to progress in your way and when you grow I think like later down the road You'll be able to be compensated better because you know more stuff Stuff that you wanted to learn and you wanted to take up on yourself and you weren't always like micromanage and told what to do So I think in some way It evens out later down the road Okay, so now I want to share with you my perspective about it But first I'm going to go deep and I want to share how it goes in my head All right, so you know like theory of constraints Oh, okay, you are too deep everything that I do I do it from minus infinity to zero to infinity So when I think of something I don't think it myself to any side to any edge Okay, and I also take into consideration zero You know because you always need to consider what happens when it's zero. Okay, when nothing happens or something Okay, now that I've said that regarding my perspectives about leading company managers and whatever So I take a look at it like I take it as Everything is a deal Blakey Okay, so if I had good money And good technology sake manager. I quit if I had you know good manager Good technology sake money. I quit. You know, so eventually I don't really think I can prioritize Like you're saying I would have this over there I would consider it as like what are my showstoples and deal Blakey's That I won't be able to deal with if I'm joining or leaving somewhere, you know, so I'm always Looking at the deal, but so for example, you can be in a castle. You know, Kalea where you're saying Listen, I don't want to be a one-man show or maybe I don't want to be in a team I want to be a one-man show it doesn't really matter your compensation or your manager This is what you want to do, you know, so that's your current deal Blakey and maybe you'll move it place The manager won't be as good as you thought it would be the compensation might be okay But if you're doing what you want to do and that's like your Most important thing you want to do right now fine At some point the manager might be too sucky and then he'll be all deal Blakey also you leave So it's like a mechanism, you know, it's like I always like to work with my deal Blakey also showstoples Like why should I join this organization or why would I leave this organization? So what you're saying is that the perfect world for you would be a combination of all of the above Yeah, so it's not all of the it's like it's way more than The above, you know, because it can be as like I said if I want to be a team player Or I want to be a one-man show maybe the technology stack maybe the technology scale Maybe the company size maybe I want to be in the specifically in the inflate team And not in the CI CD team or maybe I want to be in a team that serves the whole organization You know, so it really depends what I wouldn't do now, you know with my career Maybe I want to be a manager and I'm willing to take Succy manager, okay, and not good manager. Okay, I won't say sucky But you know an adequate manager adequate minus just so I can be a manager Maybe that's my you know, that's my goal now I want to be a manager and I'm willing to take a less Better manager or whatever you say, you know Because how I see it. I understand. I have a question before my question. I just want to give a Star on what I said When you start a new role your manager will never be the best manager There is because you don't know each other you don't know how he manages He doesn't know how to manage you because you're just you're not familiar with each other most of the times. I mean And that means you both need to be on your best behavior I quote in order for you to get familiar and to develop a relationship Maybe even friendship for you to better work with each other and my approach to that is being the best I can at least to begin with with every task I'm given regardless if that's my dream task or my dream technology to work on What I've already taken that role upon myself. I'm going to be part of the team part of the company even as a consultant I'm going to take whatever they need to begin with and do it the best I can at least for a few months so I can gain Trust and build trust between us and now that they know that I can deliver and I'm know what I talk what I'm talking about It's not that I need to let that go. It will it will naturally I'll get the the freedom from my manager because he knows he can trust So that's my approach to begin with you're not going to have it. That's my little star You need to build it up. You need to own it as a manager and as someone who is being managed. That's the one thing my question to you is If you're now interviewing to a company, right? You're not you're not part of the organization So it's hard to say Do you have a system or a way or maybe you've never thought of it, but you do you are doing something? How do you know if who you like your direct manager? How do you assess whether he's the right person for you or let me put it that if you have an interview with your direct manager And it's not going like 100% you're not you know, you're not on the same vibe. You're not transmitting on the same On the same on us. Yeah, exactly. You don't have the same energy. It's not it's not working as good as you've expected How do you work with that? Well, first I learned not to judge just by first interaction. So if I see something is not that one hundred percent I might even acquire maybe another call just to discuss maybe about the you know as an excuse like maybe the manager can explain to me the company's product or something So I can have another interaction to make sure what I'm feeling about it, but it's a very extreme case like usually the first instant interaction Is enough, you know, I mean, I just told you something that I would do if that happens to me But I didn't do it, you know, I never had a chance to say hi I want to talk with a manager just to like first interaction is enough and I think I just Feel it, you know, you feel people I agree. I'll tell you what I'm doing I'm doing that and I agree with you if you don't feel 100% though in the first conversation ask for another one just to Generally talk with each other maybe maybe ask frame it as a friendly talk But regardless, I'm usually if I can if it's not too small I'm going to find team members who work at that company and approach them directly either on LinkedIn or on Facebook I usually do that and then I can you know get a feeling of what's going on Even if they won't tell me directly how this this manager working or someone else is working I'll get their vibe assuming they'll be open enough to share with me and I asked them like do you like working on the company? Are you feeling well? I'm a candidate. I want to join your team What do you say maybe not directly about the manager? How do you feel about the team? Technology is the way the speed in which you're Working and getting to work. How is the firefighting etc, etc. I mean, you know us Someone I want to know what to ask from the HR Exactly how to squeeze someone who is interviewing me Yeah, so that's that's generally what I do because I want to be confident enough that I'm going You know, you can start a role after a lot of considerations and thinking and and maybe declining other companies And then you start and then after a week you find yourself in hell And that's something you want to avoid so I'll do I'll take as many measures as I can to avoid that I can tell you I told you something about a feeling okay. We talked like a feeling like you know You're getting to a place. You see the manager get a feeling I think I can and maybe you can do it to get a break down My evaluation parameters like what my AI escape brain like what my yeah KPIs or my AI brain is doing when I See this manager so when I evaluate I think specifically a manager I think I'm looking for someone that if I raise a new idea in the interview So let's say he asked me a question a technical question And then I provide an answer that is not part of what he thought though it is a valid answer so I I'm looking to see if his open-minded to things that he haven't thought about or considered before talking with me You know, so this way I can check the interaction like how it would be on a daily basis when I come up with my ideas Because if in the interview you come up with an idea and they block you immediately you can To quite get the culture of the organization, but if the manager asks you wow that is that's interesting Tell me more about it. I want to hear that idea because I haven't thought about it You can realize that you're in good place because they want to learn from you and You know The seal perspective and maybe implement it and whatever so This like one thing that I do like make sure you are Interesting enough and make sure that they are interested in you because if they're not It's also not going to happen on daily basis Totally I thought that I agree that I have nothing. I also evaluate the whole chain by the way I don't only evaluate the direct manager So if the HR is not synchronized with the managers you realize it's culturally something is wrong with the company So if they set up a date or a schedule and they're not aligned and they're like oh he didn't tell me I'll talk with them so those things can happen But if it happens a lot during your interview process, so it also can mean listen they're They're like not organized So even a startup should be organized when it's come to Interviewing people because eventually you know this like the most valuable resource you need to tell it that way And if you see that the Interviewing process you know the hiring process is good Then it can also mean I can say the company is healthy, but it's a good indicator that the company is Yeah, you know valuing Employees and the best employees. Yeah candidates to catch them because good candidates when they see bad Interviewing and hiring process will just dump it in the middle, you know Let me add something to that You've touched a really important point So this is something that helps me understand the culture of a company exactly what you said as a as a candidate Sometimes you interview with a company and that's not your first time. Maybe you were returning candidate Not because it didn't work the last time Maybe you've interviewed and you were perfectly fine But they decided to go with someone else because it was just further down the the HR process and he got an offer and took it And then they told you okay, you were I have to stop the process not because there's someone in if they don't run Keep your details and know that you've already been there and And two they don't keep notes to know that you've been through the interview and who you are What did you talk about that means they don't really appreciate you and the last thing is If you were declined Sometimes people don't even get a notice if they've been declined or not fast enough It can take weeks not to mention months or not at all If that's how you treat employees That thing compounds later on in a bad way because those employees can go and tell their friends and their you know and friends tell friends and you Kind of build a reputation of a bad system or a bad company that treats some employees Rather badly so even if it's not right You don't want to create the reputation So what I think even if you have declined someone as a company as an agent team and you don't control us We're DevOps engineers. We don't always control us But I as an interviewer and someone recruiting to my team and hiring people I always made sure that people that I declined one Get a very quick notice. Okay, they should know right away that they Werent taken in and to give them notes Why what what went wrong and even give them tips what they can do better to improve and I would invite them to come back again Like in six months in one year time and reapply and then when they reapply Hopefully we keep the notes of what went on on what went bad last time and why would they were rejected and they will appreciate that both The invitation to come back the tips that they got and You know the overall fact that we treated them with the respect even though they weren't they weren't in they didn't pass So that's something important that I have to say about JGR processes and I think I don't want to say most But I think most companies don't do that or don't don't do that well enough They try to Not always unfortunately. Yeah, okay, so I think we should move back to the managers Right, so we talked about all the you know leading managers not companies Yeah, okay, so Now I'm wondering like Has it ever happened to you like where you weren't a consultant? Maybe in the path or not not you specifically do you know a case you were friend or whoever Who specifically left the company because of the manager who did X and I want to know what is X to realize What's a bad manager form? I don't know an experience that you know, okay, so that brings me to a question I wanted to ask you earlier Maybe I'll answer it myself But my question was I asked you how do you evaluate it when you're in the process of being getting hired and my other question was If whether you think there's a way to fix something if something goes wrong now you ask me about what goes wrong So I'll be I'll be nice and answer your question first Yes, of course I do But I must say most of the times it wasn't a one thing. It wasn't like if someone's breaking your trust Even that can be so but if if it's a trust thing like you find out that someone you're talking about the manager right now Yeah, so I think always but yes, yes, if the true I mean trust is goes both ways But if your trust is broken between two entities whether that's the manager or the other side It's going to be broken regardless of how you Try to think in my eyes at least because There's two ways to go from here if it's about trust either you're going to be micromanaged to a point that you're going to be forced out Or just be micromanaged for the rest of your life, which is or the rest of your employee period Which is bad enough or you're just going to be fired or treated bad in to a point that you want to be fired or or or leave the company What was the other thing? I forgot what I wanted to say It was I think it was so you were trust analogy if you want in the meantime that you remember to go ahead Okay, so an employee is like an AWS service and And a manager is Like all is is also an AWS service. So what you do you create a trust entities in the IAM role of the City of the employee now if you have a lot of things mentioning there You're getting micromanaged But as long as you have all those aspects and wildcards It means your manager can give you a lot of freedom. May or may that's exactly what I needed I'll tell you why here. Here's what the other thing that I forgot That was it perfect. Yeah, we are poisoned to his devil. Yeah, exactly My other point was sometimes it's not about breaking trust breaking trust is very you know black and white Sometimes it's just about things that are not working as good as you're expecting It doesn't have to be all done, but it may be just you're not even micromanaged You just you don't like the tasks you're working on you feel like you're not being treated as well as maybe other team members It's just not working that technology that are being chosen the freedom that you're given Maybe your manager is giving you a very structured plan Living you really no leeway or no feedback to even give because everything is just given to you You just do this done and then when you finish talk to me So I think this is an important part that though I asked you how do you see whether you see a way to fix that so That brings me back to our first point give feedback always I think at least where I wake up wherever I work now We have this six period month of evaluation and the evaluation goes both ways You start with the evaluation from the employee to the manager And then you give the reverse feedback from the manager to the employee and that's very important because I think most teams Don't do that or at least they'll focus on how the manager evaluates their employees So as an employee is very important to give feedback if that's not part of the cycle the official cycle And you don't have a structure for it do it voluntarily talk to your manager You have hopefully you have one-on-ones One-on-ones don't have to be all technology and all professional stuff They can be personal and if it's not personal at least make it Work-life professional I mean speak about how it's going at or give feedback If you're not asked just voluntarily provide the information I'm not having fun slash. I'm not feeling I'm progressing quick enough slash I'm not enjoying my work because xyz because it's too structured because I'm getting tasks I'm not enjoying and you don't always get 100% of what you like to do tough life But sometimes you do want to work on you know, interesting technologies And maybe do a little bit of research and maybe touch things that you don't normally get to And that's feedback that your manager has to hear and if it doesn't know to ask it You need to know how to provide that's the point And that's why it went well with your AWS services and that's you Yeah, it was trust entities Yeah, I had something in mind. Hang on. I just want to see if I can put it in a right way Okay, never mind. I just had an idea and I was like no, it's too complicated So maybe I'll try to abstract it in my head and then we'll move on You have any other questions or topics you want to talk about those Managers leave I leave that to my corner because I have something for the corner of the week that It's not exactly aligned with that, but it it's kind of touching the topic Um Okay, so why you want to move to the corner if you're if you're one I mean, it's your it's your job to say it Not going to lose the corner hang on so the viewers will hang on for five seconds So Omer will do elevator song in the meantime And then I'll try to remember what I want to say about I only have the children songs though They want me to sing a chill child song. Yes. Do it. I think yeah five seconds Okay, so okay, okay, thank you So last episode sorry for that we had a thank you for the for the commercial summer no problem Um last episode we talked about squeezing the lemon So I say let's convert this episode to squeezing the manager So what I want to say is that if you're squeezing the manager, you'll get a lemonade Right, and why do what I mean by that if you get a bad manager That's like a very good practice for your soft skills because eventually you don't always get good managers, right? Everything connects, right? Yeah, such a click if you take if you take Uh allegedly, you know bad manager or manager. You're not working out who it at the challenge You know as like oh, this is the challenge for myself I'm not talking about the manager who abuses your work Yeah, I'm talking about like I'm an angel you that you don't get on because you don't have the same Professional perspectives not in the personal matter. Okay, if something goes wrong in the personal metal leave But if it's professionally difficult to express what you want to do And your architectural perspectives and your levels for spell step Yeah, perspective So you can you can just Maybe talk about it with him. Maybe change your approach because you know you can't really change him You know it's we all know that you can't really change the other person But you can change how you will act to that person So when you get on allegedly not such a good manager You can practice with yourself How to get along with people that are difficult to get along with especially when they have a higher rank than you Because usually with teammates you have the same voice and then You know probably the manager will decide or maybe you vote or getting to some limit But it's way more difficult to have an negotiation with someone that You know beforehand has the upper hand on you, you know, it's like It's like a last fight so don't make it a fight Maybe and don't make it an argument make it a discussion and make it nice So it's nice to hear you because if you come along, you know wake up in the morning and say hey guys We got to switch all our tokens and access keys with this OIDC provide them Whatever to protect everything people will be like what does this guy want and your manager will be like stop stop Negative and crazy. Yeah, but if you not wake up in the morning, but Right an official email maybe a partial manager before you write that email and Talk with him and say your idea and consult with him So he'll also feel that it's also part of his idea, you know So there are a lot of techniques to deal with bad managers So this is why in the beginning of this talk When we said People don't leave Companies they leave managers. I was like Maybe you should stay for a bit because maybe you can learn more Okay, that that brings to mind something A tip to the managers that I once heard. I don't know if I'm probably not as good at that, but as an employee It's rather easy You have one manager to report to so you speak to them as a manager. You're going to have a team with different personas I mean, I guess I hope because That's the way things are some are going to be a little more Introverted other extroverted some will be somewhere in the range My lesson was like may one may or two may or three may or four. We were all the same. I never had that Unfortunately if that's what you have. That's rather easy. It's an easy life for the manager What I wanted to say is as a manager you need to differentiate different personalities and understand how to manage them It's I mean it was an amazing blog post. I have to find it Maybe I'll find the link and share it if I if I'll be quick enough But you need to understand the different personas. So an employee might leave a manager Exactly based on the title of this episode because they don't know how to manage them You don't need different people need different attention and different ways to work with them now is and I can Put things on the employee's shoulder and say you need to educate you need to Tell your manager how to manage you, but it's not always as easy I mean the manager is there because you probably have some skills hopefully to manage other people So that's on him to understand how to manage different people and how to access them You said something very important Negativity and positivity. It's not always That extreme, but you do feel it when someone gets up in the morning like you said and does everything with the extreme negativity Maybe something's going on in their life. Maybe they just don't like their work But as a manager you need to spot that and Maybe it's the wrong excitement like the excitement is going the wrong way. Maybe it's like they're so excited that it goes Sideways, so I think that can also happen. You're getting wake up in the morning and say Let's migrate from ECS to EKS. You might I mean sure that's nice That you start about it, but you need a plan you need to do it Well, okay, that's a great example if you're getting up with excitement about something you want to do and your dreams Quote-unquote are broken completely. They tell you, okay? They're shattering your dreams You want to learn Kubernetes and your manager tells you what the f are you talking about get rid of the style get to work Maybe he does that in an offensive manner. Maybe he doesn't think it's offensive And maybe he did it Badly enough for you to start being extremely negative about everything else because you had this great idea And nobody listens to you and that's where things get toxic and when thing gets toxic The one thing you want to do is break apart the toxic part from the company or the team because that's Sometimes you can't get back from it That's it. I think that's that's enough. Okay, so I think We're done with the company manager's manager's company leave whatever squeezing the manager And we can move to the corner. Are you ready for the corner? Yes, I'm very much ready Okay, so now we are moving to the corner of the week after I was waiting for 14 minutes. Yes. It's here. Yeah Okay, so corner of the week. Oh, man. Welcome. It's nice to have you here today. Thank you. Thank you. Good to see you with C2 So I please share anything you've done last year last month next month back to the future. Whatever you okay? Okay, we talked about Managers and employees and getting hired. There is an effort on the internet. That's called it's called an open note Just JSON resume. If you go to JSON resume.org. I'll leave a link There's like an attempt to create a standard for resumes within a structured JSON Which we all like because we're engineers and we like things structured in JSON So that's one attempt and it's really nice And it's kind of cool. I guess because it's not as known So you can send your resume within a JSON to an engineering application And maybe you're going to impress someone because you're really really creative I'm quite disappointed on them because you're saying JSON in your smiling man I would expect you'd say a YAML file a YML file not a JSON file. I'm not gonna start this word No, no, no, no, but there is an exact you can convert them rather is it JSON Just saying you can't add comments to JSON files and I think your resume file should contain comments about stuff So if your field names are good enough, you don't need comments. Uh-huh. There. I started the word Okay, JSON now. All right, so you can create a JSON resume And there is a cool tool which I'll also add that's kind of a CLI not kind of it's a CLI And you can run it to create your JSON resume We'll ask you a few simple questions like name title experience the other it'll create the JSON for you And it will help you serve it. It's I think a node project So it will help you serve it locally and create like a release from that So you can post and serve it from wherever s3 or something like that Pretty cool. I'll leave with the links below That's it. Sounds cool. Well, my thing is related to us All right, I think I told you about it in private. Yes, we do talk in private We don't always communicate in here. Yeah, we talk so So when I told you that About chat GPT how I'm too lazy to upload our YouTube videos because we need to create a description and it's Exhausting to like why why wouldn't we pay someone to do it or something? So and then you told me hey, hey, what about GPT and chat GPT and I'm like hey Maybe that's an idea. That sounds good. So I created a GPT. It's called DevOps dynamizer description I mean chat GPT chose its description or whatever, but I just Tag along and I took so what I want to share here is if you want to train Something or create a GPT for a meaningful meaningful thing So I think it's a great example So what I did because I want to generate a YouTube description according to subtitles. Okay, that's the goal So I took 20 of our episodes with their title and subtitles and their description that we we already wrote in the past That I liked them. You know how they're formatted and everything I also created another file which I called like a template like this is the way I expect to get the output And I uploaded those files to the GPT And then I must say you can configure the GPT when you chat with it, but I don't like it because eventually in the back scenes like in the configuration vaccines It's not working well. So my my recommendation is when you create a GPT Don't even start chatting with the chat GPT about your GPT Just go to the configuration behind the scenes and tell it what you want to do All right, and then just test and test and test don't chat with them. It's like it's not that good enough So I told them listen. I uploaded this JSON file with 20 episodes and their subtitles and those and description I want you to train on those 20 episodes. So in someone uploads on an SLT file, you know a subtitles file I want you to generate the YouTube description which includes SEO and links to websites and whatever according to the subtitles Including timestamps that will fit YouTube description So I I wrote many many many more things I just wanted to elaborate a bit more so people will know how to instruct GPT to help them Is it so like is it something that people actually it's public? I can I can share the link so could and it's Specializes in DevOps So if you upload subtitles for maybe, you know, Braveheart or Gladiator or some other movie that is not a world movie Then you probably won't get such a good result because Think about it all our content is based on EC2 AWS EKS So it sees all those repetitive words and It sees how we wrote the timestamps and how we divided it So I also told it listen timestamps should be between 6 to 12 You must always have an intro summary and maybe something in between The gaps between the timestamps should be at least maybe 15 seconds So you need to think about a lot of things a lot of parameters if you really want to get the best result ever as if You read all the subtitles and all the descriptions like you wanted Eventually, I mean it took hours. Okay. It's not like it took a few minutes in AI. Ba ba ba ba No, no it took hours. I mean like seven ten hours to get the perfect result But now I can say confidently that I can confidently say that if you upload an SLT file to this GPT, it will generate an inscription and this is why this weekend I'll probably start uploading YouTube videos. And if before is it you're getting paid. I know actually it's probably too free. So we won't be rich. Okay, never mind. Not this time. Never mind. Not this time. Cool. That's cool. Let's share it. It sounds like a good YouTube video, by the way. Very interesting. How to build a YouTube description dynamite? Yeah. Yeah. It was nice. It was nice. Like the whole process of, you know, you like instructing it as a person, you know, that's so I enjoyed it so much that I don't need to write if else or whatever. Yeah, not her language. If you or if you know how to develop, like real how to develop, you don't like to write code. You just like the same idea, which has some logic in it, and then stuff to happen. You know, I don't believe in code. I use code only because I must, but if I could, I would just describe what I need and I'll get it. I think in CS degree in first year, you start, I mean, lots of the tests in the CS courses are write the algorithm in natural language, explain what it does, and then it progresses on to actual code. That's so that's good because for a understanding algorithm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's all for me and it helps over. No, I have a great week. Please do contact us through Twitter and the other channels. That's great. A nice community if we can. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes sometimes. Okay. So all right. I love you. Thank you. See you next week. Bye.